Saturday, May 27, 2017

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Dear Ziva,

of course I agree and share many of our concerns.

I was really pointing out how the three concepts that you described (spam,
selfies and self promotion) have little to nothing in common with each
other. They are really different phenomena. So I was really wondering what
you were referring to.

when a certain threshold in any of these categories is reached, our humble
> central nervous system does not treat it as a complex phenomenon but as
> noise overload.


I am not sure about this. Other mechanisms exist, such as attention (and
its absence), social dynamics in selection of information, bubbles, echo
chambers, which have good and bad effects, depending on where you're
looking.

Are we sure that this "overload" or "tolerance" is the only thing that is
happening?
There are other options and possibilities, and even opportunities.

All the best,
Salvatore


>
>
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Dear Ken,

If the highest value you can bring too any discussion is to describe what
> you do, then I'm not sure why we are here on a list for art-science. Jeff
> Koons describes what he does.
>

if you read the line below "describe what we do" it says: "... describe
what we do, our motives and background research, how we formulate
experiments, what are the results and impacts, what implications,
difficulties, innovations,"

so what we do is : describe what we do, describe our motives, describe the
background research (which means previous studies/cases, or lack of
previous studies/cases, or studies/cases which inspire us and how and/or
how we try to reformulate them to try to go beyond them a little bit...),
describe how we formulate experiments (which can be in the lab, but they
can also happen in a performance, or in a city, or in another setting,
according to a method, so that they can be performed again, etc, which
includes the fact that we release all tools, software, technologies, data
in input and output etc), describe the results, describe the impacts (what
changed? what stayed the same? what was not "readable"? why? what next?),
describe the difficulties, describe the innovations (what, if any, happened
now that hadn't happened before? what have we done with it? what do we
imagine that we can do with it? what do we try to do next with it?...)


>
> When you add to this such dimensions as formulating experiments,
> describing results, considering difficulties, then description must rise to
> the level of analysis. This, in turn, requires deeper description,
> comparison, and if you also claim innovation, then you've got to
> demonstrate what happened in the past. That is to say, when you make
> scientific claims for your art or your approach to art, more is required
> than a description of artistic practice.
>

so, with the previous paragraph I hope to have answered your doubt.

I thought it was pretty clear even before, but evidently I was wrong.

What I was really referring to by answering Ziva was the "self-promotion"
thing. I have nothing wrong with it, and I figured, from what was being
said, that even Ziva had nothing wrong with it. But, again, I think that it
was important to communicate that describing an experiment, and its pre-
and post- (see above), is more important than self-promotion.

>
> Without analysis, it is impossible to support other people's research.
> Merely describing what one does assumes that what you do is innovative.
> This may not be the case. That's why researchers work to identify the gaps
> in the knowledge of the field prior to their contribution. Significant
> innovation in uncommon. It is more likely to occur following serious
> thinking and analysis.
>

of course we do that. as a matter of fact it is one of our priorities.


all the best
Salvatore


>
> Yours,
>
> Ken Friedman
>
> —snip—
>
> > We are practice-based.
> >
> > The highest value we can bring to any discussion is to describe what we
> do,
> > our motives and background research, how we formulate experiments, what
> > are the results and impacts, what implications, difficulties,
> innovations,
> > etc appear when we perform such experiments, and hope that this is useful
> > to give someone else new ideas, open up new possibilities, etc.
> >
> > In this, we also try to use art and practice as a platform, to support
> > other people's research, innovations, critical stances, where they can
> come
> > together, inspire, be applied in the world, and also to engage people in
> > ways which are effective, persistent, transformative.
> >
> > In a way, we "only" have our practice to bring into any discussion. Which
> > is of course inspired and informed by other things.
>
> —snip—
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
> page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest
> Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
> http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
>

--
*[**MUTATION**]* *Art is Open Source *- http://www.artisopensource.net
*[**CITIES**]* *Human Ecosystems Relazioni* - http://he-r.i
<http://human-ecosystems.com/>t
*[**NEAR FUTURE DESIGN**]* *Nefula Ltd* - http://www.nefula.com
*[**RIGHTS**]* *Ubiquitous Commons *- http://www.ubiquitouscommons.org
---
Professor of Near Future and Transmedia Design at ISIA Design Florence:
http://www.isiadesign.fi.it/
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Dear Ken

I agree with what you have stated below. What is even better is that you have kept it brief.

I would like to add that there are serious differences between scientific practice and art practice. In our culture, in anycase, art is practiced by individuals and, at its best, it is very much related to that individual's psyche, vision and experience. Yes, artists also observe the work of other artists and may choose to work in possibly unexplored are least areas. But that is not all that common and certainly not the main driving force behind an artistic practice.

One reason artists and scientists can find interest in each other's work is their different experience and vision of reality.

all best,

Liliane


Liliane Lijn

07770350633
02088095636
www.lilianelijn.com <http://www.lilianelijn.com/>
> On 26 May 2017, at 13:02, Ken Friedman <ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Salvatore,
>
> What does it mean to say "we are practice-based"? You are making claims to research and experiment.
>
> These claims require clear thinking to be meaningful.
>
> All research is practice-based on some dimension. Scientists in every field engage in a practice — the practice of research. This is even the case for purely theoretical sciences such as mathematics, theoretical physics, logic and philosophy.
>
> If the highest value you can bring too any discussion is to describe what you do, then I'm not sure why we are here on a list for art-science. Jeff Koons describes what he does.
>
> When you add to this such dimensions as formulating experiments, describing results, considering difficulties, then description must rise to the level of analysis. This, in turn, requires deeper description, comparison, and if you also claim innovation, then you've got to demonstrate what happened in the past. That is to say, when you make scientific claims for your art or your approach to art, more is required than a description of artistic practice.
>
> Without analysis, it is impossible to support other people's research. Merely describing what one does assumes that what you do is innovative. This may not be the case. That's why researchers work to identify the gaps in the knowledge of the field prior to their contribution. Significant innovation in uncommon. It is more likely to occur following serious thinking and analysis.
>
> Yours,
>
> Ken Friedman
>
> —snip—
>
>> We are practice-based.
>>
>> The highest value we can bring to any discussion is to describe what we do,
>> our motives and background research, how we formulate experiments, what
>> are the results and impacts, what implications, difficulties, innovations,
>> etc appear when we perform such experiments, and hope that this is useful
>> to give someone else new ideas, open up new possibilities, etc.
>>
>> In this, we also try to use art and practice as a platform, to support
>> other people's research, innovations, critical stances, where they can come
>> together, inspire, be applied in the world, and also to engage people in
>> ways which are effective, persistent, transformative.
>>
>> In a way, we "only" have our practice to bring into any discussion. Which
>> is of course inspired and informed by other things.
>
> —snip—
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Ken,

clear and concise - perfect manual to reduce spam! We should all work on
it, keep improving!

And now for something completely different (Monty Python, 1971). For that
zone in between where no manuals apply and where categories of artistic vs.
scientific research melt down. For the transdisciplinary zone we were
approaching just before you changed the time zone (no pun intended). Any
suggestions?

Živa


On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Ken Friedman <ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com
> wrote:

> Dear Salvatore,
>
> What does it mean to say "we are practice-based"? You are making claims to
> research and experiment.
>
> These claims require clear thinking to be meaningful.
>
> All research is practice-based on some dimension. Scientists in every
> field engage in a practice — the practice of research. This is even the
> case for purely theoretical sciences such as mathematics, theoretical
> physics, logic and philosophy.
>
> If the highest value you can bring too any discussion is to describe what
> you do, then I'm not sure why we are here on a list for art-science. Jeff
> Koons describes what he does.
>
> When you add to this such dimensions as formulating experiments,
> describing results, considering difficulties, then description must rise to
> the level of analysis. This, in turn, requires deeper description,
> comparison, and if you also claim innovation, then you've got to
> demonstrate what happened in the past. That is to say, when you make
> scientific claims for your art or your approach to art, more is required
> than a description of artistic practice.
>
> Without analysis, it is impossible to support other people's research.
> Merely describing what one does assumes that what you do is innovative.
> This may not be the case. That's why researchers work to identify the gaps
> in the knowledge of the field prior to their contribution. Significant
> innovation in uncommon. It is more likely to occur following serious
> thinking and analysis.
>
> Yours,
>
> Ken Friedman
>
> —snip—
>
> > We are practice-based.
> >
> > The highest value we can bring to any discussion is to describe what we
> do,
> > our motives and background research, how we formulate experiments, what
> > are the results and impacts, what implications, difficulties,
> innovations,
> > etc appear when we perform such experiments, and hope that this is useful
> > to give someone else new ideas, open up new possibilities, etc.
> >
> > In this, we also try to use art and practice as a platform, to support
> > other people's research, innovations, critical stances, where they can
> come
> > together, inspire, be applied in the world, and also to engage people in
> > ways which are effective, persistent, transformative.
> >
> > In a way, we "only" have our practice to bring into any discussion. Which
> > is of course inspired and informed by other things.
>
> —snip—
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
> page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest
> Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
> http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
>
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

Friday, May 26, 2017

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Salvatore,

when a certain threshold in any of these categories is reached, our humble
central nervous system does not treat it as a complex phenomenon but as
noise overload. As I mentioned though, it is more than a personal style
that escalated, it is overgrowing into a big part of today's culture.

In terms of cultural heritage it is indeed interesting to observe this
development: are we actually increasing the level of this threshold or are
we ignoring more and more information as statistically irrelevant noise.
Are we actually becoming more tolerant or is this "tolerance" becoming a
symptom? I agree, the complexity of how and why our culture evolved in this
direction cannot be denied. We can only speculate on its complex
"mechanisms," perhaps we can try in mcluhanesque sense: how are
self-promotion and self-amputation of the central nervous system related?
Do we adjust our habits, assume the "good old culture," experiment with
"self-censorship"? Or do we wait for immanent technological solutions? If
augmenting our intelligence with invasive technology becomes a necessity,
and implantation of digital social networks directly onto our analogue
central nervous system becomes "part of the contract," to be executed "by
default," will we develop more sophisticated ways to process noise
overload, accessing information unmasked by advertisement thus turning
self-promotion into completely irrelevant practice? Would local cultural
differences even play a role in ability to adapt and thrive in such
scenario or is such adaptability organically conditioned, statistically
evenly distributed across the globe? Will culture itself at some distant
point become statistically irrelevant noise?

Živa Ljubec


On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 8:02 AM, xDxD.vs.xDxD <xdxd.vs.xdxd@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Dear Ziva,
>
> Since Salvatore's posts are reliably "inclusive" mainly
> > in the sense that he is including substantial self-promotional material –
> > that kind of "inclusivity" makes his posts more obscure when one tries
> hard
> > to dig out new questions and new ideas.
>
>
> We are practice-based.
>
> The highest value we can bring to any discussion is to describe what we do,
> our motives and background research, how we formulate experiments, what
> are the results and impacts, what implications, difficulties, innovations,
> etc appear when we perform such experiments, and hope that this is useful
> to give someone else new ideas, open up new possibilities, etc.
>
> In this, we also try to use art and practice as a platform, to support
> other people's research, innovations, critical stances, where they can come
> together, inspire, be applied in the world, and also to engage people in
> ways which are effective, persistent, transformative.
>
> In a way, we "only" have our practice to bring into any discussion. Which
> is of course inspired and informed by other things.
>
>
> > Spam, selfies and self-promotion seem
> > to be our current cultural expression, and in terms of quantity, an
> > enormous contribution to cultural heritage today, that (unfortunately)
> > cannot be overlooked. And as Ken would ask – is this the world we want?
> >
>
> Spam, selfies and self-promotion are three entirely different things, with
> entirely different dynamics, strategies, cultural valence etc.
> They are complex phenomena: are we sure that looking at them with
> sufficiency is the best approach.
> While we complain about Facebook invading our privacy, a selfie on the same
> platform may constitute the only chance to have something which vaguely
> resembles a public space for someone in another part of the planet
> controlled by regimes. Complex, complex, phenomena.
>
> Cheers!
> Salvatore
>
>
> > On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 8:27 AM, xDxD.vs.xDxD <xdxd.vs.xdxd@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > We're going to Lisbon, at the Post Internet Cities
> > > <http://postinternetcities.weebly.com/> conference, to present a
> concept
> > > which is called "Constrained Cities", which is the result of a research
> > in
> > > which we observe if and how filter bubbles and echo chambers
> materialize,
> > > physically, in cities.
> > >
> > > We take tens of thousands of geographically relevant queries to be
> > > performed in a city using search engines, social networks, travel apps
> > etc.
> > >
> > > We have them executed by the profiles of tens of thousands of people
> > (using
> > > apps, bots impersonating these profiles, etc).
> > >
> > > If there are bubbles, the different profiles will receive different
> > > answers.
> > >
> > > We map answers.
> > >
> > > We map the differences in these answers, describing polygons on the map
> > in
> > > which people may never encounter one another, or parts of the city
> which
> > > simply do not exist, because search results do not point to them (or
> the
> > > ones which point to them are on the >4 page of results, meaning that
> > nobody
> > > will ever see them)
> > >
> > > data-driven, bubble-driven separation
> > >
> > > Around this research (which has a sound background research, sound
> > > methodology, sound technologies, sound execution, sound conclusions) we
> > > have built an artwork, which includes a fictional video of a dystopian
> > > narrative, a wearable technology which sends you light electrical
> shocks
> > if
> > > you try to go to places which "are not on your bubble map", we organize
> > > walks in the city trying to materially see the bubbles, engaging
> people,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > And this is a very important issue: data-driven separation, algorithmic
> > > segregation, premium-service-driven separation. When people
> > > <http://gizmodo.com/5893882/tourists-follow-car-gps-into-
> a-body-of-water
> > >
> > > start
> > > trusting
> > > <http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/05/driver_following_
> > > gps_direction.html>
> > > GPS
> > > directions <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/26/subaquatic_merc/>
> > more
> > > than
> > > <http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/GPS-routed-bus-
> > > under-bridge-company-says-1270598.php>
> > > they
> > > trust
> > > <http://metro.co.uk/2007/02/18/dont-follow-the-sat-nav-
> says-sign-82808/>
> > > their
> > > <http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/driver-
> > > follows-gps-into-sand/news-story/081ea557f486757a0cdd2722892727bb>
> > > own
> > > eyes
> > > <http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/a14872/bad-gps-
> > > directions-car-accident/>,
> > > this is a really interesting thing to think about.
> > >
> > > I say all of this because I really do not understand Ken's point.
> > >
> > > Or, better, I really do understand it and also strongly support it.
> > >
> > > But I really have a hard time following these obscure accusations (Ken,
> > put
> > > some names and indications! it's hard to follow you! Who are you
> talking
> > > about? Ziva? Me? Katerina? Roberta? Oriana? Annick? Who?) and I don't
> > > really know if I want to waste my time reading them and thinking about
> > > them. I rather have a more positive, inclusive approach: offer us poor
> > > artists and mediocre scientists advice instead of just attacking in
> > obscure
> > > ways. Please do, and I will be thankful instead of disturbed.
> > >
> > > I know for sure (because I do it) that Science can be brought outside
> of
> > > laboratories. And that art is a wonderful, powerful, way to do it. And
> > that
> > > Arts and Sciences have different logics, methods, techniques, tools
> etc,
> > > But that they can strongly support each other. And that this support is
> > > optimal when art and science are peers, each in its own role, but at
> the
> > > same level, aiming at collaboration.
> > >
> > > And, on top of this, that this theme is super-relevant in the
> > Mediterranean
> > > area, as this is one of the types of actions which could be strongly
> > > supported to bring innovation and development.
> > >
> > > Now I really do have to catch a plane: I'll write later
> > >
> > > ciao!
> > > s
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Ken Friedman <
> > > ken.friedman.sheji@icloud.com
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear Živa,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your note. I have a few brief thoughts.
> > > >
> > > > 1) We can learn a great deal from fiction and fictional
> propositions. I
> > > am
> > > > a great reader of Ursula LeGuin's work — both her science fiction
> (the
> > > > Hainish novels) and her fantasy (the Earthsea cycle). What makes
> > LeGuin's
> > > > work so impressive is that she attributes deep motives that we can
> > > > understand to creatures that are in some ways similar to us, and in
> > some
> > > > ways different. Then she places them in a serious setting in which
> they
> > > > face challenges, and allows us to see how the actions of these very
> > > "real"
> > > > imaginary characters unfolds.
> > > >
> > > > I am aware of the direction in which we are now headed. It's not just
> > > > William Gibson who portrays the world. So do Neal Stephenson, and
> many
> > > > more. Most recently, Emmi Itäranta's Memory of Water and Emily St.
> John
> > > > Mandel's Station Eleven show us the consequence of these worlds.
> > > >
> > > > No one has been very good at showing us ways beyond these problems in
> > > > fiction. There have been some responsible attempts in real life
> through
> > > the
> > > > work of people like Elinor Ostrom and Jørgen Randers, but there is
> more
> > > to
> > > > be done.
> > > >
> > > > 2) It is useful to distinguish between imaginary propositions and
> well
> > > > argued proposals. Imaginary propositions help us to understand why
> > > > something is important in terms of emotion, feeling, and ethics. In
> > this
> > > > sense, imaginary futures explain "Why." Well argued proposals offer
> > > > responsible ways forward toward the world as we want it to be. In
> this
> > > > sense, solid proposals explain "How."
> > > >
> > > > 3) The geological record of the planet, and the pre-human and human
> > > > records of anthropology, archaeology, and history have a lot to tell
> > us.
> > > So
> > > > do the scientific literatures of the natural and social sciences.
> > > >
> > > > Well argued proposals require reasoned argument from evidence. A
> great
> > > > deal of what I've been reading in art-science lacks evidence. To the
> > > degree
> > > > that imaginative propositions help us to think about what we want the
> > > world
> > > > to be, much of this is interesting. But it does not help to show
> "how"
> > to
> > > > achieve that world.
> > > >
> > > > A great deal of the serious work in art-science involves physical
> > > science,
> > > > technology, biotechnology, computer science and the like. In these
> > areas,
> > > > it is possible for artists to make things that work.
> > > >
> > > > My background is in the social and behavioral sciences. It is far
> > harder
> > > > to change the complex sociotechnical systems that constitute our real
> > and
> > > > very problematic world.
> > > >
> > > > Since this conversation began, I spent some time reading some of the
> > book
> > > > chapters and articles in which Yasminers propose mechanisms for
> social
> > > > change. These were imaginative propositions that had little hope of
> > > success
> > > > in reality. The key missing element was an argument from evidence.
> > > >
> > > > There are two ways to consider evidence — and its absence. The
> science
> > > > writer and New York Times columnist Michael Shermer developed a
> Baloney
> > > > Detection Kit not long ago for examine evidence and arguments —
> > including
> > > > flawed evidence and faulty arguments. Two smart students at High Tech
> > > Media
> > > > Arts in San Diego name Deanna and Skylar turned this into a charming
> > > > graphic:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.academia.edu/33138970/Baloney_Detection_Kit_Sandwich
> > > >
> > > > Unfortunately, the kit and the sandwich overlooked the one kind of
> > > missing
> > > > evidence that we see in a great many discussions by people with a
> PhD,
> > > > including some people who work as professors.
> > > >
> > > > This is the art of pretending to offer evidence by citing real books
> > and
> > > > articles in a way that makes it impossible for anyone to locate the
> > > > supposed evidence within the cited documents.
> > > >
> > > > I was amused and irked in reading one book chapter in a new
> art-science
> > > > book that supposedly creates a substantive argument based on
> > responsible
> > > > evidence while it did no such thing. Nearly every reference was a
> loose
> > > or
> > > > sloppy reference to a serious book or article, but the author of the
> > book
> > > > did not point to anything the cited sources actually stated, nor did
> > the
> > > > author show where in the cited documents I could find the assertions
> > > > supporting the claims in the article I was reading. It would have
> taken
> > > me
> > > > several days of work to read through nearly 15,000 pages of source
> > > material
> > > > to uncover the truth or falsity of claims. To offer an exaggerated
> > > version
> > > > of what I read, it was something like:
> > > >
> > > > "Giraffe (2000) argues that human beings emerged from caves to begin
> > the
> > > > agricultural revolution (Zebra 1989). This left us living in cities
> > > > (Antelope 2014) where we necessarily aggregate in marketplaces
> (Baboon
> > > > 2008). According to Fox (2003) we can regenerate the social
> atmosphere
> > by
> > > > encouraging local festivals to reduce capital intensity and market
> > churn
> > > > (Hedgehog 2010)."
> > > >
> > > > It may or may not be the case that any of these worthy authors made
> the
> > > > stated claims. Since I'd have to read thousands of pages to find out,
> > > there
> > > > is no possible way to test the claims of the author I read. I must
> > either
> > > > accept the author on faith or discard the whole thing. Worse yet, the
> > > > author fails to make a clear argument in the chapter itself. On many
> > > > points, the author points to an external source as though the cited
> > > source
> > > > can make the argument on behalf of the author. It's like saying that
> an
> > > > author can stack up a set of books and articles on one side of a
> scale
> > to
> > > > prove the conclusion on the other.
> > > >
> > > > As the editor of an interdisciplinary journal of design, economics,
> and
> > > > innovation, I put together a small guide to reference and citation
> that
> > > > shows authors how to use cited sources responsibly.
> > > >
> > > > https://www.academia.edu/32742678/Friedman._2017._
> > > > Principles_of_Reference_and_Citation_for_She_Ji
> > > >
> > > > IMHO, a great deal of what I'm seeing in the way of argumentation is
> a
> > > > magic act, using smoke and mirrors to distract the audience from any
> > > > reasonable argument while pretending to offer evidence in the form of
> > > > citations to real documents that readers can't use.
> > > >
> > > > 4) There is a difference between imagining possible futures and
> running
> > > > simulations. We need both. But it is not reasonable to suggest that
> > > Gibson,
> > > > LeGuin, Itäranta, Stephenson, and St. John Mandel are running
> > > simulations.
> > > > They are not, no more than Mary Shelley was running a simulation when
> > she
> > > > wrote Frankenstein or Isaac Asimov was running a simulation when he
> > wrote
> > > > the Foundation Trilogy.
> > > >
> > > > I hope that I don't sound terribly stupid here, but I cannot see how
> > > > artists "propose alternative parameters that run through the digital
> > > neural
> > > > nets." Artists may make imaginative propositions, but I have yet to
> see
> > > an
> > > > artist make rigorous use of digital neural nets to test and compare
> the
> > > > outcomes of different parameters. It is true that some scientific
> > > > disciplines don't overlap. We already know this.
> > > >
> > > > At the same time, the principles of consilience and the relationships
> > of
> > > > physical law place limits on what we can do and what we can hope to
> > > > achieve. We know a great deal less about social and behavioral
> forces,
> > > than
> > > > we do about physical law, and we particularly know a great deal less
> > > about
> > > > economics — but no one can demonstrate a way past entropy.
> > > >
> > > > If someone has been running simulations in the way that climate
> > > scientists
> > > > and economists run simulations to test multiple parameters, I'd be
> > > curious
> > > > to see what they did and what they learned.
> > > >
> > > > But I want to read the evidence for myself. I do not want to see a
> > series
> > > > of careless references to a stack of books by a zoo full of authors.
> If
> > > > we're going to treat the interaction of art and science seriously, it
> > is
> > > > also important to recognize the responsibility to provide evidence
> in a
> > > > responsible way. This involves more than argumentative claims. And it
> > > must
> > > > allow readers to find Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C, and so on
> > without
> > > > spending a month to read slowly through all the supposed documents to
> > > which
> > > > the citing author refers.
> > > >
> > > > 5) As a brief footnote to Annick's comment on English, the answer is
> > > > simple.
> > > >
> > > > In the years just before the first millennium, and for much of the
> > > > millennium and a half after, Latin was the universal language of
> > > > scholarship and argument. Those of you who lived in lands bordering
> the
> > > > Mediterranean would have been speaking one of your own languages — or
> > at
> > > > least the language of the empire that conquered your land. In those
> > days,
> > > > theology was the queen of the sciences and law the common language of
> > > > courts and empires. For many people, universities were wrapped around
> > the
> > > > higher faculties of theology and law, so Latin worked well.
> > > >
> > > > For a time, Arabic was also a central language around half the
> > > > Mediterranean, and most of the best scientists and mathematicians
> used
> > > > Arabic.
> > > >
> > > > Following the Humboldt university reforms, German became the language
> > of
> > > > science. The reason is simple: the world's great universities of
> > science
> > > > were located in Germany, and many of the best journals were published
> > in
> > > > German.
> > > >
> > > > The massive investment in science by American, British, and
> Australian
> > > > universities saw the language of science and scholarship shift to
> > English
> > > > from the 1950s on. And that is why people who work in science speak
> > > > English, even when they talk about the Mediterranean.
> > > >
> > > > Don't worry, though. Nothing lasts for ever — not Rome, not the
> British
> > > > Empire, and not English.
> > > >
> > > > Over the past fifty years, North American universities have
> generally
> > > > been among the world's best — they trained many of the world's
> > scientists
> > > > and scholars, while their graduates and researchers took a massive
> > share
> > > of
> > > > the Nobel Prizes, the Fields Medals, and the other top science
> awards.
> > > > Given the current political climate in the United States, American
> > > > universities are struggling to survive at this level.
> > > >
> > > > China, on the other hand, is making massive investments in science,
> > > > education, and research, while extending economic soft power through
> > the
> > > > One Belt,One Road initiative.
> > > >
> > > > Fifty years from now, Yasminers may well be discussing the
> > Mediterranean
> > > > in Chinese.
> > > >
> > > > Yours,
> > > >
> > > > Ken
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On May 22, 2017, at 6:13 PM, Ziva Ljubec <ziva.ljubec@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Ken,
> > > > >
> > > > > thank you for "taking the risk" in a quite complicated debate.
> > Katerina
> > > > and
> > > > > I have pointed towards implications of economic and cultural game
> and
> > > > > whether innovation is rather renovation at all costs, in order to
> > feed
> > > > the
> > > > > narrative of future abundance, in order to keep the unsustainable
> > > present
> > > > > actions seem as if reasonably serving a sustainable future.
> > > > >
> > > > > You are asking "what kind of world we really want — and what it is
> > that
> > > > we
> > > > > want to contribute to in the art/science conversation," partly in
> > > > reaction
> > > > > to Salvatore's proposal which, as briefly noted before, is quite
> > > > > reminiscent of Gibson's dystopian novels. But the fact is, this is
> > > where
> > > > > our current economic model is heading, and as you are well aware,
> it
> > is
> > > > > impossible to just simply turn it off and reach utopia instead.
> > > > >
> > > > > To escape the blinding narratives, post- or pre- modern, I proposed
> > an
> > > > > ideally impartial point of view, a multiplicity of viewpoints from
> > > which
> > > > we
> > > > > run as many simulations as possible. In this sense science is not
> to
> > be
> > > > > challenged, just for the sake of being challenged, as you expressed
> > > your
> > > > > concerns. The involvement of the artist in science here is to
> propose
> > > > > alternative parameters that run through the digital neural nets,
> > > > parameters
> > > > > that could be overlooked in scientific disciplines that don't
> > overlap,
> > > > > crucial parameters that an artist as a DEW radar spots from a
> > > > > distance.Through digital neural nets we just might be able to see
> the
> > > > > potential of our world more clearly.
> > > > >
> > > > > Živa Ljubec
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > > > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > > > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> > > >
> > > > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> > > >
> > > > SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In
> > the
> > > > page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> > > > password in the fields found further down the page.
> > > > HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and
> enter
> > > > your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click
> > on
> > > > the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> > > > TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> > > Digest
> > > > Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> > > > If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
> > > > http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > *[**MUTATION**]* *Art is Open Source *-
> http://www.artisopensource.net
> > > *[**CITIES**]* *Human Ecosystems Relazioni* - http://he-r.i
> > > <http://human-ecosystems.com/>t
> > > *[**NEAR FUTURE DESIGN**]* *Nefula Ltd* - http://www.nefula.com
> > > *[**RIGHTS**]* *Ubiquitous Commons *- http://www.ubiquitouscommons.org
> > > ---
> > > Professor of Near Future and Transmedia Design at ISIA Design Florence:
> > > http://www.isiadesign.fi.it/
> > > ᐧ
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> > >
> > > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> > >
> > > SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In
> the
> > > page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> > > password in the fields found further down the page.
> > > HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> > > your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click
> on
> > > the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> > > TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> > Digest
> > > Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> > > If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
> > > http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> > Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> > http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
> >
> > Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
> >
> > SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
> > page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> > password in the fields found further down the page.
> > HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> > your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> > the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> > TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set
> Digest
> > Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> > If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
> > http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> *[**MUTATION**]* *Art is Open Source *- http://www.artisopensource.net
> *[**CITIES**]* *Human Ecosystems Relazioni* - http://he-r.i
> <http://human-ecosystems.com/>t
> *[**NEAR FUTURE DESIGN**]* *Nefula Ltd* - http://www.nefula.com
> *[**RIGHTS**]* *Ubiquitous Commons *- http://www.ubiquitouscommons.org
> ---
> Professor of Near Future and Transmedia Design at ISIA Design Florence:
> http://www.isiadesign.fi.it/
> ᐧ
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the
> page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and
> password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter
> your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on
> the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest
> Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to
> http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/
>
_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art*science 2017 - The New and History

Dear Salvatore,

What does it mean to say "we are practice-based"? You are making claims to research and experiment.

These claims require clear thinking to be meaningful.

All research is practice-based on some dimension. Scientists in every field engage in a practice — the practice of research. This is even the case for purely theoretical sciences such as mathematics, theoretical physics, logic and philosophy.

If the highest value you can bring too any discussion is to describe what you do, then I'm not sure why we are here on a list for art-science. Jeff Koons describes what he does.

When you add to this such dimensions as formulating experiments, describing results, considering difficulties, then description must rise to the level of analysis. This, in turn, requires deeper description, comparison, and if you also claim innovation, then you've got to demonstrate what happened in the past. That is to say, when you make scientific claims for your art or your approach to art, more is required than a description of artistic practice.

Without analysis, it is impossible to support other people's research. Merely describing what one does assumes that what you do is innovative. This may not be the case. That's why researchers work to identify the gaps in the knowledge of the field prior to their contribution. Significant innovation in uncommon. It is more likely to occur following serious thinking and analysis.

Yours,

Ken Friedman

—snip—

> We are practice-based.
>
> The highest value we can bring to any discussion is to describe what we do,
> our motives and background research, how we formulate experiments, what
> are the results and impacts, what implications, difficulties, innovations,
> etc appear when we perform such experiments, and hope that this is useful
> to give someone else new ideas, open up new possibilities, etc.
>
> In this, we also try to use art and practice as a platform, to support
> other people's research, innovations, critical stances, where they can come
> together, inspire, be applied in the world, and also to engage people in
> ways which are effective, persistent, transformative.
>
> In a way, we "only" have our practice to bring into any discussion. Which
> is of course inspired and informed by other things.

—snip—


_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/

Re: [Yasmin_discussions] art-science discussion

Good afternoon Yasminers,


A question inspired by Annick last remark: 'Oh, and I don't believe there is such a thing as "raw" data, because to get "data" you need a "collecting tool" and this is already a bias' , as this has been the main topic of my art/ research practice. I create Models of Observation.

The question: Higher level computer code and scripting, has become predominately english based. What would happen if code was based in languages other than English, would this make a difference in how we work with the code and what could that mean for diversity, nuance, and ethical choices when it comes to writing tools for, collecting, selecting, and preserving digitally? Maybe a rhetorical question, though it is important to imagine outside of the digital to speculate what if the digital was based on a different cultural heritage then it currently is. Is that even possible?

Does anybody have examples of question of this topic in art -science practices?

Thank you for the inspiring conversation.

Greetings, Jacky




Models of Observation
http://jackysawatzky.net


On 2017-05-23, at 4:52 PM, Annick2 wrote:

> Dear Yasminers,
>
> I have read this whole discussion in one go. Very interesting indeed. And I would hope to be able to join in Bologna in July.
>
> I would like to thank Oriana for her post (which I have shorten, but kept below).
>
> Here 2 questions for you all that I am asking myself :
>
> 1 - We are all discussing here in English. How many countries in the Mediterranean Rim have English as their official and/or everyday language ? Gibraltar, I suspect. And Malta. And ?
>
> Is language a cultural heritage ? Should we preserve them ? How ?
>
> In the inclusive approach of Salvatore, how do we include the languages ?
>
> How do we "name" the Mediterranean Rim in our different languages ?
> In French, we can use "bassin méditerranéen", but it is more used in a climate-physical geography approach. When we want to talk about the countries and the political-cultural geo-zone, (migrants crisis and disaster, wars, etc.), we say "en Méditerranée" ('in' Mediterranean sea), or 'pays de la Méditerranée' (countries of the Mediterranean sea). Note that we never use the word "sea", Méditerranée is enough.
> So basically, we are describing a "territory" through the "water-hole" that is in the middle.
>
> 2 - Innovation
> Some months ago (may be 2 years now, actually ...), I was reading one of the memoirs submitted to Leonardo Pioneers & Pathbreakers memoir project. It was describing the process and researches at Bell Labs in the 60's. (art-ingeneer-science).
> Something we recognize now as great period, achievements, innovation, etc., as a model. The author was describing the hard struggle they had to convince the bosses that what they were doing was great job and usefull (although they were asked somehow to "innovate" and were in a rather "friendly" environnement where artists were accepted).
> That lead me to this question to all the current promoters of "creativity-innovation" : if you were seeing innovation, would you recognize it ?
> Isn't what we call "innovation" today, just the short term answer to previous questions (hence all those things that are made today but look like old SciFi stuff from 20th Century) and in no manner any long term, or forthcoming (sorry, missing english to express myself as I would like to) proposition for tomorow's life ?
>
> Oh, and I don't believe there is such a thing as "raw" data, because to get "data" you need a "collecting tool" and this is already a bias ...
>
> Annick
>
>
>
>
> Le 23/05/2017 à 00:47, oriana persico a écrit :
>> dear Yasminers,
>> I always loved the name of this list, but now I can picture it connected to
>> the discussion: it allow me to imagine ourselves speaking in an Istanbul
>> cafeteria, in Tunisia, in my beloved South of Italy or in Marseille wrapped
>> by the same delicate perfume, the Yasmin.
>
>> one thing is sure: there can not be meaningful discussion if one does not
>> put things in context.
>> right now, talking about geography in the Mediterranean Rim is a sensitive
>> political act. define the boundaries of cultural heritage in Mediterranean
>> Rim is a sensitive political act: what shall we protect and feed and, most
>> important of all, connect with? once we eventually define this geography,
>> have those place the same citizenship, the same chance to survive and be
>> integral subjects of the conversation? are they this very conversation? if
>> not, why? can we bring them in?
>> in 2014 I have experienced the precise feeling of a cultural deprivation,
>> which allow me to discuss this topic from a personal-not so personal point
>> of view.
>> In those days Salvatore an I were in Yale for a semester. I was taking
>> different classes, among them one about women and autobiography. one book
>> was the transcription of a blog written by a young woman from Iraq of my
>> exact age (I'm 37 now). She passed to two Iraqi wars, as I did: me watching
>> it from television, she under the bombs, desperately searching for water,
>> electricity, internet connection - her fading link to the world outside.
>> autobiographies are pretty much like conversations: you enter someone else
>> life, the part they allow to share in a intimate/public way. in this space
>> - speaking with this unknown Iraqi girl - I found my self realizing
>> (meaning here "to feel") that Iraq was the Fertile Crescent (la Mezzaluna
>> Fertile) I have studied in history since I was a kid. books and teachers
>> always told me that this were the roots of our "civilization": from this
>> sophisticated people we have learned, among many things, how to build
>> beautiful gardens.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Yasmin_discussions mailing list
> Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
> http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions
>
> Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin
>
> SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
> HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
> TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
> If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/




_______________________________________________
Yasmin_discussions mailing list
Yasmin_discussions@estia.media.uoa.gr
http://estia.media.uoa.gr/mailman/listinfo/yasmin_discussions

Yasmin URL: http://www.media.uoa.gr/yasmin

SBSCRIBE: click on the link to the list you wish to subscribe to. In the page that will appear ("info page"), enter e-mail address, name, and password in the fields found further down the page.
HOW TO UNSUBSCRIBE: on the info page, scroll all the way down and enter your e-mail address in the last field. Enter password if asked. Click on the unsubscribe button on the page that will appear ("options page").
TO ENABLE / DISABLE DIGEST MODE: in the options page, find the "Set Digest Mode" option and set it to either on or off.
If you prefer to read the posts on a blog go to http://yasminlist.blogspot.com/